074: Pirates in California? | Michael Hardwick Part 2

In the second part of my interview with Michael Hardwick, we hear about Hippolyte Bouchard, a pirate who raided California's coast, and learn about the history of the Spanish and Mexican presidios.

This episode explores sea battles, invasions, and the armaments used during California's conquest and defense.

Historian Michael R. Hardwick shares insights into powder supplies, Spanish cannons, and colonial history from 1769 to the Mexican War. 

In an interesting twist, Michael introduces also us to Spanish horticultural practices at the California missions.

Transcript

Damian Bacich: 0:00

Welcome to part two of my interview with Michael Hardwick. On the second part, we get into more detail, especially about pirates on the coast of California and the attack by the famous, uh, pirate. I Bouchard. We also talk about the fate. Of some of these really interesting cannons that were at the Presidios. And toward the end of the conversation we talk about the history, preservation of history in California, and we even get into a very interesting discussion, which I hope to continue later about, uh, horticulture in Spanish, California. So without further ado. The second half of my conversation with Michael Hardwick. Can you talk a little bit about Bouchard, who he was this pirate that came down or, yeah, down the coast.

Michael Harwick: 1:05

Uh, originally I think he, he was with Napoleon, but he got a, a letter of, of, Mark, uh, from Argentina to be, uh, to prey on Spanish shipping. So he put together a fleet in Hawaii and, uh, decided to come raid the coast of California. Uh, so he started up in Monterey and uh, they had a big sea battle there. Uh, and he actually captured the town of Monterey, chased the governor out. Governor actually had to leave town, and he burned the city and held it for like six out six days. And then he got. Um, he got, he decided to just come down the coast and start ravaging the coast. So he hit, he hit here, Santa Barbara area, Refugio, which was a big, kind of a trading area, and he sacked that place and uh, and then went, kept going south and, um, I think he, San Juan Capistrano, I think he hit that place. So anyway, this got the vice royal up in arms, you know, and, um, we didn't really have the forces available to fend off this this sort of invasion. So they decided they needed to put some, you know, some, some defense up in this area. Now we're talking 18, three or four, or what is it? 18? I don't have my dates right.

Damian Bacich: 2:35

What was it It, was it 18? 18, right.

Michael Harwick: 2:41

18. 18, yeah. So that's in, we're pretty late in the, uh, in the period in the Spanish period. So anyway, in the, in the beginning they were concerned about the Russians and the English because everybody was sneaking into the coast here doing hide and tallow trades and, you know, illicitly trading with the, with the Spanish people along the coast. And, uh, and then later, you know, people like Rashard and Pirates came in here. So it was a big, big tug of war to try to hold onto this territory. So the emphasis after the 1790s was, uh, trying to keep the place from being taken over by Seaborne Invaders. And prior to that it was, you know, possible revolts of native peoples.

Damian Bacich: 3:31

Should we go to the next one?

Michael Harwick: 3:33

Yeah, well now we get into, uh, the scan, the Spanish cannon, the removal of them from California. Uh, the top picture there, you see the, uh, invasion, uh, of Monterey, uh, in 1845. And, uh, they capture the, uh, um, they capture a lot of the cannons at that point. Um, and, uh, let me see if I can get something in the book here that talks a little bit about that. Um. yeah, so that's a watercolor at the top, uh, of the assault done by William Henry, um Meyers. This is in the book in 1842. And to the right you can see a, uh, a battery with a circle of, uh, and the flagpole. And the garrison has got six counted, uh, cannon mount mounted in a barbette up there. And, um, so these are the cannon that they, they, when they stormed that, and, um, and this is what they found when they stormed it. From the Ele Alen Alonzo Jackson. This is in the book. Page 1 0 5 said The Stormers marched up to the fort, which was situated on a hill high hill, fronting the sea. Here the Mexican colors were flying. These were soon hauled down and hoisted, and we hoisted the stars and stripes. The battery of the fort consisted of 14 long brass and iron guns with which an effectual resistance might have been made had they been properly handled. We found that in the magazine about a ton of powder with any quantity of copper and iron shot. As soon as we had possession of Fort, we went to work to prepare for an attack from the inland. We converted the magazine and sleeping apartment and so on. We loaded all the, uh, so they were ready to to, to fight off, uh, anybody that might come. So they were captured, the great guns were captured, uh, in Monterey, in San Francisco. And these were, um, the Elizabethan guns, but much like what we have at, uh, Presidio, uh, San Francisco. And, uh, and they were, uh, put on board Shep as trophies of war and, um, and shipped to the east coast of the United States. Um, and when the US uh, Naval Academy was built in 1845, uh, these Spanish cannon were relocated to Annapolis and they re currently reside at the academy. Um, so there you have it. Um, that's how the guns got there. And the center picture is a ca a one of those bronze guns captured in 1842 at Monterey, the name of which matches, uh. Of the guns that they captured. And it's there at the academy right in front of Bancroft all. And then the bottom picture is, is our presidio cannon that or type cannon that we found there at, at the, uh, at the academy.

Damian Bacich: 6:59

So he mentioned, um, that those guns were enough to, to have amounted a, an effective resistance had they been employed. Well, what do you think, what do you think the issue was, there? Was it because that Presidio at that point was, was not really manned very much? or or why wasn't, why weren't they employed in a more effective way?

Michael Harwick: 7:24

well this was during the Mexican period, uh, uh, a lot of these, a lot of these, uh, defenses had gone and, you know, had sort of gone into, uh. Uh, disarray. You know, they weren't manned properly, they weren't supplied properly, they didn't have the proper go artillerymen to operate them. Um, the, the materials were there, but, um, uh, I don't think when they, when California was invaded by the Americans, uh, during the Mexican war, there was very, they encountered very much resistance.

Damian Bacich: 8:05

Right.

Michael Harwick: 8:06

You know, there were a couple of battles, ba basically down around the Los Angeles area and what have you, but I mean, you could see there's a whole fleet of ships that sitting there and, you know, there's troops come ashore. And I don't think they were, they were gonna encounter, they, I don't think in that area, they encountered much resistance.

Damian Bacich: 8:26

Right now US Army occupied the Presidio San Francisco. It remained an army base up until fairly recently. And, and the Presidio at Monterey is to this day. But

Michael Harwick: 8:41

No. Well,

Damian Bacich: 8:43

or, well, I mean it is, it's a military installation.

Michael Harwick: 8:46

Yeah, Right.

Damian Bacich: 8:48

So, but that didn't happen with San Diego or Santa Barbara.

Michael Harwick: 8:53

Uh, Santa Barbara Presidio. Well, San Diego. Let's talk about that. Uh, the, the remains of that Presidio is still up in Old Town, up on the hill there by the Sarah Museum. And that became the settlement for San Diego. And, uh, you know, there was a garrison of soldiers there. And then eventually these soldiers retired and moved down the hill and started, lived, lived in those areas of, of Old Town and whatever. So, so eventually the Presidio just sort of fell into disarray. Adobe's built around it, and a sim similar kind of thing happened to Santa Barbara. You know, it was, it became the old town, Santa Barbara and Monterey, the same thing. You know, the area around the Presidio became Old Town, you know, Monterey. And the, the only thing really left is, you know, the, the chapel right there where the Presidio was.

Damian Bacich: 9:53

Okay, but they call it the Presidio still, or they call the the base. There still the Presidio, but It's not really

Michael Harwick: 10:01

It's not located downtown.

Damian Bacich: 10:03

Yeah. yeah, yeah.

Michael Harwick: 10:04

Yeah. Presidio is an army base now. And, and what's on the Army base is where the Castillo, the, the Castillo, the old Castillo that was there at the, at the Presidio is, is on the army base on the bluff overlooking the ocean there.

Damian Bacich: 10:21

Gotcha. So can I ask you another question, just a technical one? Uh, when, um, when Fremont, I believe no. Was it? Well, anyway, I've heard the term multiple times. Um, spiking the cannons. Yeah. He spiked the cannons at, at the, the Castillo, San Joaquin, I believe in San Francisco. What does it mean to spike a cannon?

Michael Harwick: 10:50

Well, as you know, in order to light a fire, a cannon, you got a touch hole in the back. So you typically, you load the cannon with a powder and put the cannon ball in there, and then you have to go through the touch hole and prick the charge with a, with a, a, a. A wire or whatever, and then you pour powder into the touch hole, and then you light off the touch hole, which lights off the charge and fires the cannon. So if you're gonna spike the cannon, what you do is you go up and you uh, you, you block the touch hole. So what they would typically do in order to, to render a gun useless, is go up and drive a nail into the damn, you know, touch hole to effectively prevent it from being fired.

Damian Bacich: 11:40

I see. Okay. That, that makes sense. I couldn't understand if where, where the spike was placed, if it was, if it was

Michael Harwick: 11:47

no, they were right in the, in the touch hole. In fact, one of the Presidio guns, I, I think I name it in the book, uh, was spiked and evidence of that, uh, can be seen. Um. We're very fortunate that we still have those guns. And if you're in the Presidio area of San Francisco, take the time to walk around those things. They're, they're beautiful pieces of, of, of, sculpture. They've got crests of the, you know, of the ruling, uh, families of Peru that, you know, that ma made that thing. There's inscriptions on them, uh, dates, uh, you know, all that sort of thing. So it's a, it's a outstanding o other than being a, a weapon of war, these things have, uh, a quality about them that rendered them as beautiful pieces of art. And when you think that these things were cast in the 1640s and 1650s, look, you've got 300 years or more of sculpture staring you in the face. You know, I think a lot of people tend to ignore that.

Damian Bacich: 12:58

Right. Is this on the cover of the book? You have, uh, an inscription on one of these cannons. Is this one of these Peruvian ones? Uh, from the

Michael Harwick: 13:09

no. This is, this is the, uh, code of arms, the cipher where Carlos III of Spain, each one of the, each one of the, each one of the, uh, kings, uh, guns that were manufactured in royal arm armor would, would have their cipher. You some have Carlos the Firth fourth. Uh, some have, you know, Philip the second or whatever, all these different ones. Uh, so they're particularly beautiful pieces of, of, uh, CIP sculpture. This particular, uh, cipher comes from a cannon in San Juan pr, Puerto Rico, um, since this book that I wrote deals with that time period, Carlos iii, um, I. And that picture just turns out to be a pretty nice one. That's why I included it. But this is in, this is one of the original bronze cannon in the, uh, fortress there at San Juan Puerto Rico.

Damian Bacich: 14:11

I see. yeah. it's, it's beautiful. So was there what, was there anything in particular writing this book that. It surprised you or that you, you came across that you didn't expect along the

Michael Harwick: 14:27

yeah. Oh yeah. Well, one of the things I was interested in was I knew that, um, you know,'cause I got into the inventories year by year, you know, of what was there. Uh, I learned several things. Um, let's see if I have these. One of them is that by royal regulation. Um. So much powder was, was supposed to be kept on hand for each soldier. So if you garrisoned 55 or 60 people, you had to, by royal regulation, you had to have so much powder on hand to supply that soldier and to allow for target practice and to get him proficient in using that, that musket. And so your magazine had to have, you know, 60, you know, had to have enough powder to, to cover that by royal regulation. Well, I did the math on what was on hand for the San San Barbara Presidio over time, and they started out below what they needed, but as time went, they built up their stores and ultimately wound up with more. Uh, powder per man than they were required to have. And the reason I think it would be they had that happened is because, so getting supplies out here were, was very difficult because, you know, everything had to come by sea. So they, over they overstocked when they, when it came to powder, um, for these garrisons on this coast that came out as a result of the study. And then I discovered things like, gee, we did, we not only had brown shot for our cannon, but they also had grape shot. So they had prepared charges available with gr grape in them, you know, like a big, when you fire a shotgun kind of thing. Only cannon size. So they had grape shot rounds available. Um, fireworks. I surprised the heck outta me to see all these fireworks and, um, you know, uh. They kept, they kept up on their supplies of of muskets and modern ones. So, you know, when the old ones would wear out, they'd, they'd get a new shipment in, of a new muskets and issue'em. Uh, they kept very, very close control of their powder stores. They inventoried it, they checked out only so much, and then the unused cartridges and powder was checked back in again. So they were very careful about the distribution of powder. They didn't want it to get out and get into the wrong hands. So that, that came out. And then later I discovered as time went on, um, the, uh, comment down the, of the, of the Santa Barbara Presidio, um, felt that his two four pounder cannon was more than he needed. So he traded them off for something a little bit smaller. And then he got into trouble from the Viceroy who said, no, that's not appropriate. Get the, get your four Pounder back. And so they were being watched in terms of what they were supposed to have.

Damian Bacich: 17:52

That's interesting being So, far away on the frontier that and you

Michael Harwick: 17:57

but they were, they were writing back and forth. And like I say, they were being, you know, they were being in inventoried on an annual basis. What was the readiness? How, you know, are they doing their, are they doing their target practice? Are they use, are they, are they able to use their muskets? I mean all this kinda stuff was going on. I'm losing you. Uh, can you hear me?

Damian Bacich: 18:24

Yes. I'm sorry, I, I had myself muted. That probably ended fairly abruptly in 1820 or 21. Am I right? You know

Michael Harwick: 18:33

I don't know that it ended abruptly, you know, it changed. it came, uh, you know, harder and harder to get supplies and, um, Mexican period. During the Mexican period, there was a different shift. Uh, the governors were more interested in, uh, secular rising missions and distributing territory back to the locals and, you know, that sort of thing. So, uh, it became more, it became more difficult to maintain an army, although they did keep a garrison going here for quite a while, you know, and it wasn't always staffed by, uh, leather jacketed soldiers. Later they brought in different, uh, types of, uh, infantry LAN squad. The LAN was here for a while. They had some, uh, uh, up in the north. They were catalonian volunteers. They, they brought those, those people in too. You know, but this was always the presidios were always the forts, the garrisons that housed these people.

Damian Bacich: 19:36

I noticed you dedicated the book to Jack Williams.

Michael Harwick: 19:40

Absolutely.

Damian Bacich: 19:41

I met Jack a few times, but I, I didn't know him very Well, Could you tell us a little bit about who he was and, and the influence he had on you?

Michael Harwick: 19:49

Well, Jack Williams was, uh, some people found he was an archeologist and he, he did a lot of archeological work. I. Arizona and, and California, whatever. Uh, he was kind of a difficult guy in terms of getting reports back from, from him. Uh, one of the, one of the most important things I think he ever did was he, he actually excavated the remains of the San Diego Presidio. Uh, I don't know how he managed to do that, uh, on a shoestring, but he did. And he got into a lot of what the work that he did. He exposed the commandant's, uh, quarters, uh, commandant Zuniga who was there, and there was a lot of good information that came out of that because you got an insight into how these guys lived. You know, he had flowers around his house. He had, he had an inside commode. I mean, all these in intricate details that came out. But anyway, more than that, Jack was perhaps the best. Scholar on the presidios of any, anybody that I've ever met historically and otherwise. So I would always go to Jack. And so any of us who were doing Presidio reenacting and trying to become soldiers and understand how they operated and lived, Jack would always give us insight. And so, um, unfortunately he did not, uh, he produced a few books, but he, he passed away at a fairly young age. He was a good artist. Uh, as you see on the back of my book, I have a drawing of the San Diego Presidio that was probably done by him. And there are numerous, uh, plates in the book that, that he, he did. So, yeah, we lost a real resource with when we lost Jack. And I don't think anybody out there, uh, even compares with what he was able to do.

Damian Bacich: 21:51

Well, I hope with time we're able to, to access more of his work. I think, uh,

Michael Harwick: 21:57

It's a, it's a, it's a real problem because, uh, he produced the California Missions Foundation, uh, paid him to produce a multi-volume, um, work of his, of the history of the Presidios and that sort of thing, which he did. Um, and, um, it was looked at by them and decided it was very too comprehensive to, to publish. And it's still out there in piecemeal fashion, but it needs to be, it needs to really come out. Um, a lot of us, you know, there are very few of us left who are really into this Presidio history. Unfortunately, it's, uh, as time has gone on, the focus of historians has been. Other things, and this period of history is kind of, you know, um, well, let's just say it's not as popular as it used to be. So, uh, people like Gerald Jackman, myself and others, uh, we're trying to keep the torch alive, you know, in whatever way we can. And we're, we're trying to think of ways that we can republish some of this material and get it out there, sort of reignite this period of history because it really is for California, uh, our colonial history. I mean, when you look at what happened between 1769 and, you know. Uh, 1780s, whatever the missions presidios, you know, in California, all this is going on at a, at the same time that things are happening on the east and we're both fighting, we're both fighting the English, this side and the East coast. And yet this history just sort of gets buried. You know, the people that only want to carry it forward seem to be the descendants and they're so wrapped up in their genealogies that they lose track of the historical, uh, components of, of, of what happened there. So that's where I've dedicated my efforts in my life, and that's probably, I'll be dying, I'll die writing books about Spanish colonial history, you know, that we need more people out there doing it.

Damian Bacich: 24:15

Yeah, I have hope. Uh, we might be at a low E right now, but I do see, and even through this podcast and, and other things, I, I see people coming out of the woodwork who, who find it. very interesting. And also, you know, military history seems to never go outta style. And, you know, civil war history, for example, is, is still immensely popular. So, um, hopefully there'll be a revival because, you know, California is growing. Uh, I think hope we might be at a low ebb right now, but I, I think in the long term I have hope Um,

Michael Harwick: 24:53

I hope so. Yeah, we, were, we're trying to do it, we're trying to get ge, Jerry wants to start this thing. He calls a Presidio initiative,

Damian Bacich: 25:01

hmm.

Michael Harwick: 25:02

which is like a, a focus on that. But we're looking, kinda looking for a home for that and trying to involve people who have similar interests and get them going, you know? Um. You know, during, during Bolton's time at the University of California, historically they produced a lot of beau of good histories in depth sort of studies. And that, uh, that sort of is eclipsed, it's gone, uh, with, uh, sort of, you know, we're, we are living in a flatlander society today. You know, it doesn't, doesn't like to look back much. Um, but, uh, there's a, there's a rich history, rich colonial California history that really needs a focus.

Damian Bacich: 25:47

Yeah, well we're doing our best here to try and share it and, um.

Michael Harwick: 25:52

Well, hopefully people get interested in this book. It's, it's not just about cannons, it's, it's about, you know, um, it's, it's about what, what, what, what it took to support those garrisons. And there's even lists of soldiers in there. Uh, you know, so people who are descendants could go back and see if they're in, if their descendant is on one of those lists. You know,

Damian Bacich: 26:18

Now can we get it anywhere? Can we get it on Amazon or, or any other place or where should we order it?

Michael Harwick: 26:23

yeah, it actually hasn't. I'm trying to get my publisher to go to Amazon, but currently it's available through, uh, uh, special books.com.

Damian Bacich: 26:35

I will put the link on the website and on the, in the show notes of this episode.

Michael Harwick: 26:41

Okay. Yeah, that's good. And I'm trying to get it, I mean, you know, if, if, if, uh, bookstores will carry it, my publisher will give them 40% discount on orders of 10 or more. I've

Damian Bacich: 26:54

Well, I think it's ideal for all of the state historic parks, the, the missions, um, all of those places should have it. And, and any bookstore owner who's listening that's interested in California history, please stock Spanish arms and armaments of the procedures in California by Michael r Hardwick.

Michael Harwick: 27:13

And it's, it's printed in full color. I think you, I sent you an ebook and the, the print is really big and good. It's, it's, it's, it can almost, it's almost a good picture book as well. So, um, I did 200 copies and as soon as they're gone I'll do 200 more. So we just keep it, keep it out there.

Damian Bacich: 27:39

Well, Mike, uh, I want to thank you for, for sticking around here for so long and, but mostly thank you for writing this book, which I think is gonna be, uh, a very great contribution to our history in California and for anybody interested in California history, military history, Spanish history, maritime history, the list goes on and it is a beautiful book. Um, and then of course you are work for the state parks for, uh,

Michael Harwick: 28:13

Well, I did. I was, yeah, I was a, I, I think what started me on this, I, I, went to work for the California, uh, state parks up at Laima. And, uh, I, uh, I established an archive up there, um, and I eventually became an intermittent park ranger. And then, um. Then I, you know, uh, had to find a real job. So I went to work for the county, but, uh, that's how I, and, and that's where I retired. But my work at Laima inspired my other two books, one of which is Laima, uh, uh, a book on Laima. The, uh, um,

Damian Bacich: 28:54

I have a copy of

Michael Harwick: 28:55

oh, do you?

Damian Bacich: 28:56

on my bookshelf.

Michael Harwick: 28:57

Yeah, yeah. That turned out to be really popular. Mainly my, because I, I did it through, uh, images of America, the history press, and they've got a heck of a marketing team. So they've, they've, they're still pushing that thing, you know? So that's, uh, the enduring history of a California mission. And then the other thing I noticed at, at, at, uh, Lapa was they, they put in a, a mi a mission period garden. So that got me interested in horticulture. So my first book was, uh, uh. Changes in landscape, uh, the be the beginnings of horticulture and the California missions. So that was, you know, what do they grow in those gardens? Not just their, their grain fields, but what every, every mission had a where to our garden. So what plants do we do we find in those gardens? And that turned out to be a pretty, pretty interesting book too.

Damian Bacich: 29:56

Didn't, did you mention that you were involved in the creation of the Huerta at Mission Santa Barbara? Is that right? Yeah. that's, that's still going to

Michael Harwick: 30:04

Now the Franciscan come and go, you know, they start projects and then they let'em lapse. So, yeah. Uh, person I collaborated with my sister-in-law. We decided, an environmental horticulturist decided that we wanted to collect plants. Early mission plants and that were, you know, that were grown during, during mission times. And so that's what's inspired the book. And we did, we established the square to this garden, and as we did, we found that these plants that were growing, they're much different than what we have today. You know, they, these were the early hardy stock, uh, fruits and vegetables and um, you know, there's a whole genetic thing there. You know, we genetically modified all this early stuff. So, you know, a blueberry today is, is six times bigger than the blueberry that used to be yesterday. You know, that sort of thing. So a lot of things came out of that. And I think we also inspired a where to like project in Arizona somewhere. Uh, but we're trying to get this thing back. We lost our horticulturalist and, and the Franciscans locked the gate, so we can't get back there anymore. But

Damian Bacich: 31:20

Oh.

Michael Harwick: 31:21

they're beginning to realize that, you know, that they've left something behind. That is a potential, you know, good thing for tours and stuff.

Damian Bacich: 31:31

Yeah, we visited it a few years ago. It was maybe three, well, it was before the pandemic, so, and I remember at that time it was really impressive.

Michael Harwick: 31:43

Oh yeah. Yeah. And we had bananas in there and we had some of the early orange trees that had spikes on'em, you know, uh, that are much different than the ones today. Um, I even got so interested in this. I found that, uh, you know, LA Perus uh, introduced the potato from Peru in California in the 1780s. He dropped off some, some of them up in Monterey and they planted them. And so we had, in the northern areas, we had potatoes growing, you know, during that time period.

Damian Bacich: 32:19

Huh?

Michael Harwick: 32:20

Ultimately the Russians got these things and took'em up to Sitka, Alaska, and, uh, they all died out here. But, uh, any, the Indians up there kept the potatoes going and, uh, they recently discovered some of these ancient potatoes growing and cultivated them. And so I, I got, I contacted them and they sent me some potatoes from Alaska and we were gonna gonna plan'em out there. And we did plan'em. Inta, unfortunately, they, they didn't last because of weather and everything, but, uh, was trying to get the potato back here, you know, to California, the original one. I think you muted again.

Damian Bacich: 33:06

Ah, sorry. Yeah, so it was, it was too warm. Is that the point?

Michael Harwick: 33:10

Yeah. Yeah, it's a northern, uh, you know, it, it takes a little cooler climate for those to grow. And, uh, but I mean, LA of course, later we, they hybrid eyes, the things, and, you know, we got these monster potatoes now and, you know, original potatoes were little guys,

Damian Bacich: 33:29

Mm-hmm.

Michael Harwick: 33:31

but, um, yeah, things like that, you know, I mean, you got into it and I, I didn't get that information, uh, from original records. I had to get that information from Victorian visits of the missions. Uh, they, they came and they wrote books and they said, oh, the garden is still there at these various missions, and here's what's in it. So from that, I was able to determine, you know, the plants that were, were, were at the various missions.

Damian Bacich: 34:02

Ah, how interesting.

Michael Harwick: 34:03

And yeah, it's, it's amazing'cause those things went on for a long time. You know, even our grape stock, you know, uses original, original mission, grape stock, and then he grafts stuff onto it, you know, and then, and so in the Victorian period there's a pure fusion of, of plants that come into California. But before that, you know, we're still, we're still looking at mission era plants that are growing in and around the various missions.

Damian Bacich: 34:32

Well sometime if you've got time, I'd love to ask you some more about that specific topic because that sounds very interesting as Well,

Michael Harwick: 34:39

Well, I put a, uh, my first book went out to document that and I have since upgraded it. And, uh, that'll probably be my next book because we revised edition of that book.

Damian Bacich: 34:51

Well, I'll be looking forward to that one.

Michael Harwick: 34:53

Yeah. I only had a few missions in it, um, originally, but, uh, the new one has got virtually all the missions in it.

Damian Bacich: 35:01

Oh wow. Okay, Yeah. Yeah. well Mike, uh, thank you so much for this. I will, um, I think, I hope everybody gets, goes out and gets the book and, uh, we'll this will be, you can either watch it on YouTube or listen as a podcast, but, uh, the, um, the images will certainly be available on the video, so, so, yeah. Thank you so much.

Michael Harwick: 35:29

well if anybody has a trouble getting the book, they can actually write to me direct and I, I'll give'em a$5 discount

Damian Bacich: 35:35

Excellent.

Michael Harwick: 35:36

$35 book and, and throw the shipping in for free if they're interested.

Damian Bacich: 35:42

Okay, so I'll put, I'll, uh, I'll put your email on the, uh,

Michael Harwick: 35:46

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Damian Bacich: 35:49

Well, great. Thank you so much, Mike.

Michael Harwick: 35:51

Well, I appreciate it and hopefully we'll, uh, get together more, hear more from you./